Comments on: EU Proposal For Games http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/ PlayStation and Xbox News, Reviews and Discussion Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:04:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: baconditty http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40853 baconditty Mon, 18 May 2009 17:28:11 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40853 OMGosh, have they completely lost their minds or what?? RT www.privacy-center.de.tc OMGosh, have they completely lost their minds or what??

RT
http://www.privacy-center.de.tc

]]> By: Skrtel http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40838 Skrtel Mon, 18 May 2009 16:53:27 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40838 Many a time I've wanted a refund after playing PES2008 & 2009. Many a time I’ve wanted a refund after playing PES2008 & 2009.

]]> By: Radboud http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40823 Radboud Mon, 18 May 2009 15:53:04 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40823 What I forgot to mention is that it is mostly the gamer who can't really state the problem in detail. What (s)he did or what (s)he didn't do, but that is understandable because mostly you don't play a game to remember in full detail all the steps you did and the current state of things in the game.... That is really a problem.... I get it all the time at work where the user simply says: "It doesn't work" and they have no clue about how they got to the part where it didn't work..... This goes for (most) gamers too I guess, including me to be honest :P What I forgot to mention is that it is mostly the gamer who can’t really state the problem in detail.
What (s)he did or what (s)he didn’t do, but that is understandable because mostly you don’t play a game to remember in full detail all the steps you did and the current state of things in the game….

That is really a problem….

I get it all the time at work where the user simply says: “It doesn’t work” and they have no clue about how they got to the part where it didn’t work….. This goes for (most) gamers too I guess, including me to be honest :P

]]> By: Radboud http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40822 Radboud Mon, 18 May 2009 15:45:59 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40822 I partly agree with that..... The reason bugged software exists is due to a lack of a decent test, because a decent test costs a lot of money and therefore is an economic reason. I know it is not easy to test software, I have been in the business of developing (and testing) software for over 10 years now. But the reason it is difficult is because people don't start early enough with testing (like in test-approach, test-scripts (both functional and technical), test-execution and test-evaluation). You should start testing the software before it is software (if you get my meaning.....), that is what always goes wrong and that is always why testing gets the project delayed..... But still, these tests cost a lot of money and isn't always done properly. Al I said was that it should be simple enough to trace the origin of the bug/error... If the code is clean and the developers have an environment with tools it shouldn't be to hard to trace it.... I am not talking about finding the solution. I partly agree with that…..
The reason bugged software exists is due to a lack of a decent test, because a decent test costs a lot of money and therefore is an economic reason.

I know it is not easy to test software, I have been in the business of developing (and testing) software for over 10 years now. But the reason it is difficult is because people don’t start early enough with testing (like in test-approach, test-scripts (both functional and technical), test-execution and test-evaluation). You should start testing the software before it is software (if you get my meaning…..), that is what always goes wrong and that is always why testing gets the project delayed….. But still, these tests cost a lot of money and isn’t always done properly.

Al I said was that it should be simple enough to trace the origin of the bug/error… If the code is clean and the developers have an environment with tools it shouldn’t be to hard to trace it…. I am not talking about finding the solution.

]]> By: popurls.com // popular today http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40808 popurls.com // popular today Mon, 18 May 2009 15:00:56 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40808 <strong>popurls.com // popular today...</strong> story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com... popurls.com // popular today…

story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com…

]]> By: Michael http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40805 Michael Mon, 18 May 2009 14:36:41 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40805 Testing software is really not as easy as some of you seem to think it is. The reason bugged software exists at all though is an economic one. The warranty and potential refund may sound good, but I suspect it would be made difficult to claim that refund. Still I applaud the idea of economic penalty as it is the only thing that will work. Testing software is really not as easy as some of you seem to think it is. The reason bugged software exists at all though is an economic one. The warranty and potential refund may sound good, but I suspect it would be made difficult to claim that refund. Still I applaud the idea of economic penalty as it is the only thing that will work.

]]> By: Radboud http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40798 Radboud Mon, 18 May 2009 13:33:59 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40798 Well, I think it is a good idea. This really doesn't have to mean that games get delayed or are not being released in the EU-region. I mean, if you have a 2 year guarantee on a TV, than you can have it repaired under the guarantee for which you don't have to pay. If this is extended to software (or games in particular) than you will get the guarantuee that a developer has to repair the product if indeed the product is broken (this can be done with a simple bug-fix or if the problem is bigger, with a new version of the game). It is very logical to protect the consumer for crappy/buggy games. I don't see the problem with this and as the market screams more and more for post-release commitment of developers this is even something that will eventually be a standard for developers. As for the fact that bugs can surface that has to do with the hardware or operating system, it is simply testable if this bug is indeed a software problem or a hardware/OS problem. The only thing you will get with PS3 & Xbox games is the same as PC games (where it states on which OS, hardware and additional components the game is tested and most suitable on). For example, if a game is developed, tested and released for Firmware version 2.60 and after installation of version 2.70 the game gets buggy, than it is not part of the guarantee, but a developer might still choose to fix the issue with a patch, otherwise I think it is Sony who is responsible for lack of downwards compatibility of the firmware. I personally think this guarantee might push the post-release support to a good level (something a good publisher/developer should already want to do). But that is my opinion Well, I think it is a good idea.

This really doesn’t have to mean that games get delayed or are not being released in the EU-region.
I mean, if you have a 2 year guarantee on a TV, than you can have it repaired under the guarantee for which you don’t have to pay.

If this is extended to software (or games in particular) than you will get the guarantuee that a developer has to repair the product if indeed the product is broken (this can be done with a simple bug-fix or if the problem is bigger, with a new version of the game).

It is very logical to protect the consumer for crappy/buggy games.
I don’t see the problem with this and as the market screams more and more for post-release commitment of developers this is even something that will eventually be a standard for developers.

As for the fact that bugs can surface that has to do with the hardware or operating system, it is simply testable if this bug is indeed a software problem or a hardware/OS problem. The only thing you will get with PS3 & Xbox games is the same as PC games (where it states on which OS, hardware and additional components the game is tested and most suitable on).

For example, if a game is developed, tested and released for Firmware version 2.60 and after installation of version 2.70 the game gets buggy, than it is not part of the guarantee, but a developer might still choose to fix the issue with a patch, otherwise I think it is Sony who is responsible for lack of downwards compatibility of the firmware.

I personally think this guarantee might push the post-release support to a good level (something a good publisher/developer should already want to do). But that is my opinion

]]> By: TctclMvPhase http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40794 TctclMvPhase Mon, 18 May 2009 12:20:10 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40794 Where do they come up with ideas like this? Does the education system in the EU completely ignore teaching basic economics? Where do they come up with ideas like this? Does the education system in the EU completely ignore teaching basic economics?

]]> By: cc_star http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40791 cc_star Mon, 18 May 2009 11:13:43 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40791 Bethesda to stop releasing games in the EU? They couldn't even launch the DLC without huge bugs. The fact that some game breaking bugs aren't fixed in Far Cry 2 yet is also something which should be receiving attention. Bethesda to stop releasing games in the EU?

They couldn’t even launch the DLC without huge bugs.

The fact that some game breaking bugs aren’t fixed in Far Cry 2 yet is also something which should be receiving attention.

]]> By: CaptnSpaulding http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40790 CaptnSpaulding Mon, 18 May 2009 11:13:22 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40790 Hopefully it will just stop utterly crap games such as Need For Speed Undercover coming out. Hopefully it will just stop utterly crap games such as Need For Speed Undercover coming out.

]]> By: Triggerhappytel http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40788 Triggerhappytel Mon, 18 May 2009 10:51:17 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40788 I have to say, I'm not sure this is a good idea. In particular, I think smaller or indie developers will suffer, who don't have the money or resources to extensively test every potential occurance for their games. Further, open-world games will suffer - in most cases the problems are fixed, and I appreciate that it's really hard for the developers to fix every potential bug in a game like Far Cry 2 or Fallout 3 before games are available. Perhaps I'm just more forgiving than most, but I don't ever recall encountering any game-crippling bugs. I'm sure there are some out there which are really problematic, but I've not yet come across any on my PS3. I have to say, I’m not sure this is a good idea. In particular, I think smaller or indie developers will suffer, who don’t have the money or resources to extensively test every potential occurance for their games.

Further, open-world games will suffer – in most cases the problems are fixed, and I appreciate that it’s really hard for the developers to fix every potential bug in a game like Far Cry 2 or Fallout 3 before games are available.

Perhaps I’m just more forgiving than most, but I don’t ever recall encountering any game-crippling bugs. I’m sure there are some out there which are really problematic, but I’ve not yet come across any on my PS3.

]]> By: Kevling http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40783 Kevling Mon, 18 May 2009 10:33:34 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40783 I contacted Traveller's Tales once about a bug I thought I'd found in Lego Star Wars that meant I couldn't finish a level (it turned out I was being stupid, but that's a separate issue). Their reponse was that a bug of that nature would not get through testing, and the game would not be allowed to be released in that condition. This whole proposal is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but completely impossible to enforce in reality. Who defines what is a "experience ruining" bug? And how can downloads be exempt, when downloads will probably be the only way a game gets fixed? What if the downloadable patch creates more problems, is it now exempt? I contacted Traveller’s Tales once about a bug I thought I’d found in Lego Star Wars that meant I couldn’t finish a level (it turned out I was being stupid, but that’s a separate issue).
Their reponse was that a bug of that nature would not get through testing, and the game would not be allowed to be released in that condition.
This whole proposal is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but completely impossible to enforce in reality.
Who defines what is a “experience ruining” bug?
And how can downloads be exempt, when downloads will probably be the only way a game gets fixed? What if the downloadable patch creates more problems, is it now exempt?

]]> By: Uhyve http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40776 Uhyve Mon, 18 May 2009 08:48:39 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40776 Apparently Francisco Mingorance has never heard of the Supply of Goods and Services Act. The law doesn't care about what is tangible when it comes to quality of workmanship. While I say that, as long as developers don't just send the game out of the door and forget about it, I'm alright with the odd glitch, I just expect the developers to fix anything really big (like game stopping glitches). Apparently Francisco Mingorance has never heard of the Supply of Goods and Services Act. The law doesn’t care about what is tangible when it comes to quality of workmanship.

While I say that, as long as developers don’t just send the game out of the door and forget about it, I’m alright with the odd glitch, I just expect the developers to fix anything really big (like game stopping glitches).

]]> By: Roarster http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40773 Roarster Mon, 18 May 2009 08:28:58 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40773 Have to agree with this, especially considering the extra costs of localisation for the European market. We'll obviously still get the blockbuster releases, but the risk might be too much for the small publishers/developers to take. Have to agree with this, especially considering the extra costs of localisation for the European market.

We’ll obviously still get the blockbuster releases, but the risk might be too much for the small publishers/developers to take.

]]> By: Chimpanzee http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40772 Chimpanzee Mon, 18 May 2009 08:22:37 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40772 Completely agree with Jag. It's a good, well-intentioned idea but I think it will just result in games being released in the US/Asia and getting feedback on forums, etc before publishers decide if/when to release it here. Completely agree with Jag. It’s a good, well-intentioned idea but I think it will just result in games being released in the US/Asia and getting feedback on forums, etc before publishers decide if/when to release it here.

]]> By: Shrui http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40771 Shrui Mon, 18 May 2009 08:20:15 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40771 What Jag said and: Problem I see with this if it came is how do you prove your game is faulty due to bad programming? Especially on PC but consoles as well. Bad drivers, memory faults, can the game be tested on the thousands of peripherals on PC? Then you've just got Windows on top of that and all the shit that comes with running games on it. On PS3 & Xbox the hard drive could have an error, overheating, fault arising due to change in firmware etc etc. Nice idea but when you sit down and plan it out it will be hellish to enforce. What Jag said and:

Problem I see with this if it came is how do you prove your game is faulty due to bad programming? Especially on PC but consoles as well.

Bad drivers, memory faults, can the game be tested on the thousands of peripherals on PC? Then you’ve just got Windows on top of that and all the shit that comes with running games on it.

On PS3 & Xbox the hard drive could have an error, overheating, fault arising due to change in firmware etc etc.

Nice idea but when you sit down and plan it out it will be hellish to enforce.

]]> By: Jag http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2009/05/18/eu-proposal-for-games/comment-page-1/#comment-40766 Jag Mon, 18 May 2009 07:48:11 +0000 http://www.thesixthaxis.com/?p=10693#comment-40766 Although I agree with the concept, I feel this is probably likely to mean even longer delays between games released here and the US. This might even lead to fewer titles being released over here. Although I agree with the concept, I feel this is probably likely to mean even longer delays between games released here and the US. This might even lead to fewer titles being released over here.

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