Lunchtime Discussion: Paid For Demos
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Article written by nofi in Blog, Features, PS3 News, on Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 12:00.
Roughly a year ago I attempted to review Linger In Shadows, a tech demo published by Sony and produced by Plastic. The software, which was essentially little more than a real time willy-waving graphical showcase for the PlayStation 3, cost £2. Not a massive amount of money, sure, but money all the same and meant that anyone without access to filling their PSN wallet wouldn’t have seen it. Unless, of course, they just watched the whole thing on YouTube or something, because although parts of ‘Shadows required the use of the controller to proceed, once you’d ‘finished’ the thing it ran at around 6 minutes from start to finish and required no further attention.
The comments in the review venomously opposed my low score (3/10), and we even had comments from the Plastic team themselves. “What I can say after reading the review is that you have created some kind of holy vision of our demo,” said Plastic’s bonzajplc. “But it’s still a demoscene demo. Not a game.” It’s not that I didn’t ‘get’ that it was a demoscene, something I’d been familiar with since the Amiga days, but merely that I felt I shouldn’t have had to pay for it. “You also seem to act as being well oriented in the demoscene history”, continued bonzajplc, “by mentioning two good old Amiga groups. Well things have changed and demoscene doesn’t do megademos anymore.”
I don’t know who decided to charge for the demo – Sony or Plastic – and probably never will. The point is, in opinion, Linger In Shadows should have been free, and that brings me neatly onto .deTuned, from .theprodukkt. Again, somebody has decided that .deTuned should cost money (just over £2, this time) for what has manifested, essentially, as a basic sound manipulation tool the likes of which the iTunes Appstore has in plentiful supply. Select a filter and use the triggers and analog sticks to ‘control’ the sound effect application, all the while watching a guy in a chair transform into various shapes and animals. A demonstration of the technical power of the PS3 it isn’t, and pales even against ‘Shadows.
Sure, for some ridiculously easy Trophies and a brief period of bemusement, both examples listed above are great fun, but these are so-called demoscene examples that have been famously free for decades now. They’re not games – they’re certainly not marketed as such – but whether or not it’s because of the inclusion of those Trophies or whether Sony really do think that throwing this sort of thing onto the Store for the price of a pint of Coke balances out the development time I’m not sure – but I think they should be free. Offset the costs with an advert for a game, perhaps, or even co-brand them in some way and give them as some kind of reward for reaching a Trophy level, perhaps.
But what do you think?
Comments
Please note that all comments are the opinion of the individual author and not TheSixthAxis.
djhsecondnature | 22/10/2009 12:05
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I don’t mind paying but thought the price points were too high. If they were 59p or something then I doubt there would be any issues.
cc_star | 22/10/2009 12:17
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Agreed
Apple deliver quality content at the 59p price point (and a lot of rubbish)
Sony seem oblivious to entry level pricing
PSP MINIs highlight this, games which are 59p-£1.79 on the iPhone are replicated (exactly) for 3-5 times that price on the PSP.
Micro-transactions to the rest of world are measured in pennies, whereas Sony measure them in pounds.
kevatron400 | 22/10/2009 12:48
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Hear hear. Couldn’t have said it any better!
illogicology | 22/10/2009 12:10
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It seems to me that charging for demos somehow goes against the values of the entire scene, however it is up to the individuals concerned if they choose to do so. Where I object is in the labelling of these downloads. A cursory glance at the download page for Linger in Shadows and .deTuned provide descriptions that are potentially misleading. Linger in Shadows, at the very least, identifies itself as “not a game in the traditional sense,” .deTuned offers no such courtesy.
Want to charge for demos? go right ahead but make sure the consumer knows what they’re paying for.
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 12:13
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detund does actually say it’s more “interactive art than game” i think you will find.
illogicology | 22/10/2009 12:38
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Oh, you’re right. Missed that. Still, I don’t think it’s clear enough how little of a game it is.
glennpfc | 22/10/2009 12:13
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I think pricing in Digital Stores is all over the place currently. you can spend anywhere from 59p to over £30 and find amazing and poor values for money at every point!
I dont understand why Sony make a bunch of video content, like those guys travelling across Europe for music, and give it away for free. Yet they decide to charge for these demoes…or “premium” themes. It feels like there are a lot of different divisions at Sony making content and there isn’t enough care paid to the overall delivery to consumers.
Matherz | 22/10/2009 12:23
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I agree, Sony should look at the structure of what should be free and what shouldn’t.
I don’t think demos should ever cost the consumer though, if your start charging for a game possibly no one has heard of before you won’t receive much interest.
I know i wouldn’t download any demos if they cost money as i would rather put it towards a full game.
mynameisblair | 22/10/2009 12:18
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70p-£1 would be a much better price.
But I suppose trophy whores will buy them for the really simple trophies.
This is why they sell.
CircleOfFire | 22/10/2009 12:20
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I think there’s a partial issue here that “paid for demos” implies we’re talking about demos for games, which muddies the water a little bit.
From my point of view these guys have invested X amount of time in making whatever it is, with maybe some support from Sony in cheap/free dev kits/bandwidth/whatever. For that time they’re looking for a payment potentially for their time.
I’m being particularly ambiguous as to be honest aside from the makers and Sony no-one really knows who’s paying what and for what.
radiobridge | 22/10/2009 12:20
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I really don’t agree in paying for demos.but I can see it happening in the future maybe with activision games they do love their money.I tend now not to even try out demos as they usually actually put me off some games ,Batman being an exception.The thing about linger and deTuned is that basically they will sell because of trophies and with deTuned I really wish I hadn’t of bothered it was well to be fair crap and to me didn’t show anything new.I like your idea of reaching a trophy level and recieving something free but I just can’t see that happening ( we can hope though)
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 12:23
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People spent their time creating these “demos”. Why should they be free? You pay to go in some art galleries. You pay for music. Why should “art” be free just because it’s been coded rather than sculpted? You can argue about if they are “art” till the cows come home – I’d say LIS is more ‘art’ than .detuned. I have both. Detuned amused me for 15 minutes which is a lot longer than two KFC snack wraps (priced 99p each) would of. Althouhg it does feel a bit like being mugged by a psychadelic dancing pengiun for two quid.
If someone has spent many hours working on something, why should they not be rewarded? No one is forcing you to buy it.
kevatron400 | 22/10/2009 12:58
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A very good point. But perhaps a lower price (not free) might mean more impulse sales and therefore actually increase the sales figures overall, therefore (hopefully) more money would go to the developers, and the consumers would be happier.
bunimomike | 22/10/2009 12:23
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I remember travelling to London to the Novatel Hotel for an Amiga show. We purchased demo disks galore. Awesome days. To cover costs, I’d love to see more demos coming out. Have it’s own category! The old demo scene was one helluva portfolio for up-and-coming folk. Just look at how Pinball Fantasies (wasn’t that Digital Illusions) turned out? I still utterly love the demos and would happily pay a pound or two for the good ones. Then again, I wouldn’t want them taking the piss but think poor sales would show them not to in the first place. A few very simple demos could be free. However, a good explanation in the demo category itself (if it ever existed) would need to explain what the whole thing’s about or people simply wouldn’t get it.
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 12:27
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Digital Illusions and Team 17 came out of the demo scene, as did the bloke who created Lemmings. If buy chucking someone 2 quid for detuned encourages them to create something like Alien Breed or Superstardust, I’m all for it.
bunimomike | 22/10/2009 12:34
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I think we’re on the same train of thought. I want the best people designing the best games. Equally, demo (and demo scene) material can be extremely entertaining. If little outfits fancy churning something special out then I’m genuinely happy to reward them with a smidge of money. If they’re trying to turn it into a money-making exercise then the essence of such a community would be gone in a moment.
TheSabreman | 22/10/2009 13:21
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Talking of Team 17, they should bring out Waggle-o-Mania on PSN anyone remember this ?
With an online multiplayer this would be a great post pub laugh !
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 13:28
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I have a very vague memory of that being on the cover of some magazine and all you had to do was waggle yer stick as hard as possible for 30 seconds or so?
TheSabreman | 22/10/2009 13:35
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Yep that’s it here it is http://www.lemonamiga.com/games/screenshots/full/waggle-o-mania_02.png
Update it a little and sprinkle with a few trophies and the kids will loves it !
a inferior race | 22/10/2009 14:43
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Couldn’t you just waggle something else? ; )
BoyDay | 22/10/2009 12:23
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We should be paying for these as they are tech demos, not a demo of an upcoming game which would be to drive sales for said game. £2-£3 isn’t exactly much to pay either so there’s no problem as far as I’m concerned.
gazzagb | 22/10/2009 12:37
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Im not gonna pay for demos, that defeats the point of them.
bunimomike | 22/10/2009 12:43
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Game demos, I’d agree, but you need to think of this as a small slice of something. Like a single track of an album (in a way). It’s a little something that’ll hopefully impress. A stunning graphical and audio delight that you catch yourself sticking on in the background. The sort of thing I used to do with Amiga demos. Such good music that I’d simply want to listen to them again and again… equally having the on-screen delights to entertain as I chilled out.
bunimomike | 22/10/2009 12:44
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Sorry. Forgot to add. These aren’t demonstrations of games but of people’s prowess. Like paying a small sum of money to visit an art gallery.
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 12:49
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Can anyone point out to me where on the PSN or the Playstation website that LIS or .detuned are described as “demos”?
nofi | 22/10/2009 13:06
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Demoscene, art, whatever. They’re demos.
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 13:11
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It may look like a demo, but unless it says “demo!” you cant complain them charging for it. Its “Interactive art” and therefore you pay. Damien Hirsts pickled shark may LOOK like a giant vinegary fish.. but it’s not, its art and therfore worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.
nofi | 22/10/2009 13:13
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I can complain about whatever I want, I’m a miserable fuck.
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 13:24
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I’m not going to argue with you there.
nofi | 22/10/2009 13:30
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<3
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 13:33
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I had to google that emoticon – <3
has the following definition(s)
love
love heart
heart
love/heart
sex
caring
loves . Aww love you too nofiwofiwoos
Erroneus | 22/10/2009 14:45
Wanted "Trophy Hunter" but was too late.
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>_>
TheSabreman | 22/10/2009 12:56
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I think it’s up to the developer whether to charge for stuff, I’m unsure long term whether it is a good move.
If I were in charge then I would try and balance things out with some free stuff and hopefully build a rapport/loyalty with my customers.
In the age of the Internet some companies fail to communicate well with their customers and you either have a poor call center advisor or generic email replies which fail to address the customers concerns.
bunimomike | 22/10/2009 13:47
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All good points. If I were Sony, I’d run a demo-scene competition and have a prize (nothing like an incentive) then showcase the best talent in a new “demo” section. Appreciate calling it “DEMOS” will be a problem as people might think it’ll contain loads of game demos. However, semantics aside, it could really work well. Something that involves the up-and-coming community, shows off talent, covers costs or at least rewards with prizes then we have the best new talent coming through all the time. Finally, we all get to enjoy it on the PSN with micro-transactions here and there.
Chimpanzee | 22/10/2009 13:23
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It’s more like paying for Trophies. I think that’s why they charge for them because they know that some people will buy anything if it will give their Trophy level a boost. But no, I don’t think these are worth money and won’t be buying another one.
Tuffcub | 22/10/2009 15:10
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They entertained me for ten minutes.
Roynaldo | 22/10/2009 17:55
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Its a crying shame that we are squabbling over a few quid but tbh you have valid points.
I have bought both, seeing as they are well well cheap and an original concept, worth a look if nothing else and can see the only reason you have to pay for them IS for the trophies.
They (collectively) are interesting and wierd in combination and for the £4 odd that I have paid I have recieved a bunch of trophies (mostly silver) and a very strange and surreal (short) experiance to boot.
Its ok to do this but understand completly why it may be frowned upon.
paragers | 22/10/2009 18:14
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I am of the same opinion, they are very cheap “things” and entertain me for a few minutes while giving me lots of easy trophy’s. Its as simple as that for me, and the more of these they release the better.
cc_star | 22/10/2009 18:31
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I wouldn’t call a couple of quid very cheap
Sure it’s not a lot of money, but it’s not a minimum amount of money either… like 59p Apps on the App Store, it’s over 3 times the amount of money that Apple charge for their entry level shite (some of which is amazingly good like Flight Control, Peggle etc…)
bunimomike | 22/10/2009 18:32
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For me, it’s nothing to do with the trophies but to see how people use the PS3 in different ways and entertain us with something different. I think it’s the creative side of me that yearns for such things.
zb100 | 22/10/2009 19:16
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You know, I think we may have just cracked the pricing scheme for Modern Warfare 2!
(Hear me out on this!)
I’ve heard figures between 6 mins and 20 mins taken to complete LIS,
the middle point being 13 (20-6=14/2=7+6=13)
Now take the length of time being quoted for MW2 being 6.5 hours,
which equates to 390 minutes.
Dividing 390 mins by 13 minutes gives a factor of 30 – hope I’ve not lost anybody yet…
Multiple your £2 for LIS by factor 30, and what do you have?
RRP of £59.99!
Ooooooh, spooky or what! Hahaha.
Personally, I quite like them & am not going to quibble over a couple of quid.
zb100 | 22/10/2009 19:19
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Curses, the RRP is £55. lol. I’ll have to re-jig my “figures” then. :)
C_S15 | 22/10/2009 19:30
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Kotick best not read this or he’ll take it as proof he can stick another fiver on top of MW2. STOP TALKING! =P
zb100 | 22/10/2009 20:36
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/whispers sorry! heh