Lunchtime Discussion: Digital Distribution
Lunchtime discussions return with a discussion on digital distribution! Meaty discussion for all!Published 30/12/2009 at 12:00 by Raen
Lunchtime Discussion: Would You Rent A PS3 Game? [46]
Gamers Prefer Digital Copies Over Physical [36]
PopCap Price Cut [16]
After awaking from an alcohol fuelled sleep in the wake of Christmas at TSA Towers it’s time to resume those wonderful Lunchtime Discussions. So what’s the topic for today? Digital distribution, the hot button topic that’s come up again and again this generation. I know that there’s certainly a split amongst the TSA staff on this issue, but as always this is all about what you guys in the community think.
Obviously digital distribution isn’t perfect yet, particularly given the UK’s broadband network. While it’s a nice dream to be able to just press a button and have a game delivered to your console, we all know it doesn’t quite work like that. You press the button and sit and wait. And wait. And wait. Eventually the download meter will fill up and you’ll be able to play your game. Well that’s great, I probably could have walked to the shops, purchased it for less and be playing the game by the point that little bar has filled up.
And there we have another sticking point, the price. A little checking shows that Burnout Paradise is available for £20 on the 360’s Games on Demand service and £14 on the PSN Store. Using my usual go to for price comparisons, Amazon, it seems that the Burnout Paradise – The Ultimate Box is available for £16.26 on the 360 and £13.95 on the PS3. Whilst maybe it’s worth going digital on the PS3 (OK so you spend an extra 5p, but who’s counting) but doing so on the 360 seems a bizarre choice, particularly given that the Ultimate Box version will save you precious hard drive space when you avoid patches and the free DLC. However it just seems crazy that both digital versions are more expensive than the physical versions, even if it’s not by a huge margin. If I’m not having to pay to have a manual printed, a disk pressed, it all put together and then shipped to me the digital version just needs to be cheaper for it to make sense to purchase that version over the physical version.
Of course the other issue is hard disk space, particularly on the 360 with the upper limit capped at 250GB by Microsoft. The PS3 has a current upper limit of 640GB, but that’s only capped by technology so we could certainly see that improve. However at the current limits the 360 can hold 50 games and the PS3 around 128 (this is based on a rough average of about 5GB for a game on Games on Demand, could certainly be lower in real world situations). The storage issue just doesn’t exist any more, even if my estimates are quite a way off for the PS3 you should still get around 50 on there.
None of this talks about the feeling of opening a new game (the same goes for DVDs, books and CDs). Digital distribution can never emulate that and whilst I do buy a lot of stuff digitally these days it’s just one area where physical copies are always going to win. But what do you guys think? Digital or physical?
Comments
Please note that all comments are the opinion of the individual author and not TheSixthAxis.
cam the man | 30/12/2009 12:10
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2061 TSA Points | Member since: May 2009
I’m not against digital distribution but I prefer to have a disc. What happens when your PS3 dies – you have to spend ages downloading the games again.
You can also trade-in a disc when you’ve finished with the game.
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 12:23
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As a counter point, what happens when your game disc dies (becomes scratched beyond use), then you have to go out and buy the game all over again, where as with DD you can just redownload. It is currently illegal to create your own backups, where as you can legally redownload a DD copy as much as you want. I think many people are under the misconception that just because you have a disc, you “own” something, but the only difference between a DD and a hard copy is actually the manual and case, you still don’t own the 1’s and 0’s.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 12:59
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If you look after your discs at all you wont end up with unplayable games, obviouslly. The fact is that if you buy a hard copy of a game once you are bored/have completed it you can sell it on, or trade it in against another game . This flies in the face of your “you don’t own it” argument. If i dont own it, how can I sell it? Digital distribution suits the publishers because it reduces their costs dramatically (no cases, discs, manuals, distribution etc) and also stops people lending games to friends etc. Not a fan, also gives them an easy way to hold back content from a game and then charge even more money for “DLC”.
cam the man | 30/12/2009 13:30
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I look after my disc and therefore have never had one that wouldn’t play.
It’s common sense to look after the discs as they’re not cheap and you cannot sell/trade scratched ones.
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 14:11
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It doesnt “fly in the face”, you are simply continuing the misconception. You are not selling the game itself, but the right to use that particular copy of the 1’s and 0’s. You can sell lots of things you don’t “own”, what do you think a leased car is? Or even a plot of land? You don’t own land, your government owns the land, you simply own the rights to use it. The difference with DD is that I can have unlimited copies of those 1’s and 0’s where as a physical copy owner is just stuck with one.
Even if you look after discs, accidents still happen and anyone who has bought a used game can tell you that not everyone takes care with their titles. Having the ability to have a copy of the game on call whenever you need it is a particularly valuable proposition. As I mention further down, it is all about convenience and perhaps the reason why you don’t understand the cost of convenience is because that pricing model is not geared towards your lifestyle. I like DD because I travel a lot. I have broken several UMDs, not because Im not careful, but because I cant account for baggage handlers and others who have no vested interest in my investment. I also dont like having to carry around a physical case and physical manual, because they get broken or lost. I also may not want to search around for a Gamestop, when I want to play a new game when I just flew into town. DD is about convenience and it is priced as such.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 15:33
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For the PSP I can appreciate entirely the point of DD and can see why it would be preferable. As I stated below, having to carry around 10+ UMD’s is a pain (as they break so easily) i have learned from personal experience. Also games are considerably cheaper for the PSP so trade in is not such an issue. Your point about “ownership” is moot though. At the end of the day DD has no future value, whereas a physical copy can be sold/traded in for close to purchase price in the weeks after release. i dont see that lease cars or land have any connection/bearing on this argument tbh….
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 15:56
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Then I apologize for speaking over your head. My point is that physical copies degrade over time and eventually your physical copy will be worthless (unplayable) because you don’t actually own the data on the disc. DD titles do not face this issue because they do not degrade and if the file does become corrupt, you can legally obtain a new copy just as easily as you purchased it. Also, unlike physical copies I can legally make multiple copies of my DD titles, which even though possible with physical media, is actually illegal. Leased cars and bought land are similar because many people believe that much like physical copies of games or music, they “own” these items simply because they are tangible. They don’t. Once you begin to realize this, a lot of the mistakenly added value of “owning” a physical copy falls away.
Raen | 30/12/2009 16:17
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Can you legally make copies? Surely you only own the right to that copy. Of course it depends on what the terms of sale say. For example I’m fairly sure you can’t make copies off of Steam can you? Of course Steam will allow you to redownload, as will Sony. I think Microsoft will, but it’s not as simple as it is on some other services. But to make an actual copy of the content would be something that’s determined by the terms of sale of the particular retailer.
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 17:10
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Sony’s PSN you can. You can legally back-up the video content and I can download the exact same item to multiple memory sticks, thus making as many copies as I choose. I cant speak for Steam as I do not use the service, but being able to redownload a game is an advantage that physical copies do not share. Legally, you can also gamehsare with the PSN, thus if you really try, you could get your games for much cheaper than in retail situations.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 18:45
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How very condescending of you TctclMvPhase. I can assure you that I very much understood your ‘high concept’ ideas regarding car leasing, but see absolutely no corrolation between that and DD. I would suggest that by the time a looked after blu-ray disc has degraded so far as to be unplayable it would be such old tech that blu-ray players probably wouldn’t be available anymore. I have managed to buy,complete and trade 4 release day titles in the last year that in the end have cost me somewhere in the region of £50 for the lot (once trade in is taken into account). To have done this with DD would have cost in the region of £160, and a large chunk of my disc space to store them. Your argument still makes no sense in anything other than very specific circumstances (yours) and not for 99% of gamers. In these financiially difficult times surely this makes sense, even to you.
Alex_Assassin_08 | 01/01/2010 16:15
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But what if your like me?
I only buy good games, and I have never once sold a game. I keep everything.
I also have just received a PSP Go. As a result, I am buying a LOT more new games, on the pure basis that they are literally ready when I am. This morning, i downloaded Liberty City Stories. Didn’t even get out of bed. I love it.
Mark my words, the PS3 is the last SONY console to use physical media. The PS4 will be entirely digital, I promise. It’s the future, and it’s far superior.
We all seem perfectly happy to use iTunes and the PSN Movie store, don’t we? We have moved on and let go of the physical copies and accepted that digital is far more convenient. Gaming is simply the newest and greatest form of media, and so we are persistent to change.
Dar-Kaus | 30/12/2009 12:14
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Agreed, Digital has the potential to be the way forward, but only when they start taking it seriously and stop treating the consumer like mugs with the priceing. At this point a physical copie has trade in value that can be offset against the original game cost so until this can be reflected in the digital cost then physical purchases will still be more cost effective.
3shirts | 30/12/2009 12:15
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I prefer downloads because I like the convenience of having games on my hard drive rather than storing and swapping disks when I want to play BUT the financial aspect is too much of an issue. The fact is that physical media is almost always cheaper AND there is re-sale value and those factors outweight the benefits of digital distribution for me
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 12:41
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I think Raen set up a bit of a straw man with his pricing example, because the PSN at least has shown itself to be quite competitive with pricing. For one thing, Amazon is the MOST competitive price you will find just about anywhere as even their new games come with a small discount you dont receive in B&M stores. The PSOne classics are all priced well below their retail pricing (even used) and many of them by as much as 75%. Most of the DD games also do come with a manual so all you are really missing is the case and the resale value. However, as you point out you are getting back the convenience of having the game on the HDD, but you are also gaining the convenience of purchasing the game at any time you want without any worries about stock shortages. Even if you order from Amazon, you still have to pay shipping and you still have to wait about 3-7 days to receive the item. The situation is worse with some new games, particularly JRPGs, where unless you preorder finding a copy within a week or so of release day becomes nigh impossible, which means you are also spending petrol and more importantly time on the game.
Convenience is tough to quantify and highly subjective and Im sure part of the reason there is a perception on the internet that DD isnt cost competitive, is because many of us do not have time that is all that valuable.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 13:03
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I think DD works best with older games that have already dropped to £15-£20 in retail stores and have very little trade-in value. For new games I think that the ability to get a large portion of my money back if I dont ‘gel’ with a game is too good to miss. More demos/betas would help with this, but I’m still a disc man.
Raen | 30/12/2009 13:11
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Yes the PSOne classics are, but a digitally distributed title should still not be more than a retailer, even Amazon. However I’d debate that Amazon is the best price, because it’s not. ShopTo.Net has the PS3 ultimate box for about £1.50 less, although it is out of stock. That’s just on one site without even really trying, so you can certainly beat Amazon. But no, if I want to get a new title it should be competitively priced and undercut the RRP. I’m well aware of the outrage this would cause from retailers and that being a primary reason that new games can’t be cheaper (in general), but it’s just dumb. The RRP accounts for a lot of things like shipping, packaging, the cost of running a store to sell the product. These things don’t exist with a digital copy, so why should I pay the same RRP? If I buy a new release from iTunes it’s normally about a pound cheaper than the CD from Amazon and quite often they’ll be exclusive tracks with the iTunes release. Hell even if I buy it from Amazon MP3 instead of buying the CD from them it’s cheaper. Why should it be different with games?
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 13:28
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Agree completely Raen. The price of DD should be dramatically cheaper than the in store price. The only cost involved for the publisher is providing enough bandwidth to allow the games to be downloaded (most of the time they can’t even manage that). The musc industry seems to understand this, and in their industry there isn’t even a marketplace for trade in etc. Maybe as the Gaming DD industry matures they will understand this.
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 14:21
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Raen, perhaps you can find a price competitive source that is not an online retailer. Shop.to is no different from Amazon, I am simply talking from an American perspective and thus did not include a UK online retailer. Either way both of your online sources neglect the additional shipping costs, which actually make them more expensive than the PSN and the additional shipping time, which for anyone who has stood outside all night for a day one release can tell you, can be an expensive proposition. As your post so kindly points out, shop.to is also out of stock, which never happens with a DD distributor. Perhaps we can also branch out into other DD sources, such as Steam, which right now has way better pricing on fairly new games, than any physical media source has had even during the recent Black Friday and Boxing Day sales.
You are correct that DD does not face the same overhead as a retail outlet, though they do have maintenance, bandwidth and operational costs. While this does leave the opportunity for lower pricing, that doesnt mean there is no reason for them not to maintain their current pricing. All games do not cost the same amount to make, yet the majority start at the same price point. All this means is that just like in retail, the price will gradually get lower in order to capture more consumers as time goes on. The end user is getting the same gaming experience, which is what the developer created. Just like in retail, the developer is going to start the price as high as possible and then gradually lower it, in order to make as much profit as possible.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 14:47
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But surely if the publisher is taking the retailer out of the price equation entirely by selling direct to customers with DD, the price has to be lower otherwise the publisher is making even more for the game than if you bought it in the shop, and you are getting less in return? As I keep saying the major benefits of DD fall to the publishers of the content, not the consumers. Until this changes I’ll keep shopping around.
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 15:03
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Or perhaps, publishers and developers, who were losing money on titles before are now able to make a profit.
Not every publisher is an Activision, S-E or EA and not every game is a blockbuster, making generalizations about how much a game should cost is little more than speculation and likely only represents a small class of AAA titles using established IP. In fact if DD gives us anything, it may just be more gaming options. From their end, you arent really getting less. As I have said, DD titles still include a manual, you are really just losing a case. The developer still has to go through just as much work to make the title. Perhaps, the benefits are now falling to the people who deserved them to begin with…
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 15:23
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Or maybe a large number of lazy publishers who ship out unfinished or poorly thought out games are going to find it easier to keep doing so? If a company cannot make a profit off its product then that is their fault for poor financial planning. I dont see why I should be expected to pay more for a product that has fewer costs involved. I agree that from their perpective I am not getting less, but at the end of the day i am out of pocket. As an example I bought UC2 on release day for £36, finished it in couple of days, didnt like the multiplayer element and traded it back in at GS for £30. if I had bought it DD I would have probably paid at least £39.99 and would still have it taking up space on my HDD now, whilst having £30 less to spend on another game. Doesn’t make sense to me…
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 15:46
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Once again you are making generalizations. What makes a developer/publisher lazy? Who is lazier, DICE when they went through the trouble of making an innovative gameplay experience for Mirror’s Edge and were rewarded with mediocore sales figures or Bungie for recycling the bulk of Halo 3 with a few tweaks and then selling millions of copies of ODST?
Laziness has nothing to do with poor sales, in fact when most developers are “lazy” they tend to be rewarded for it. Nobody expects you to pay anything, DD pricing works just like the pricing of physical items, they ask a price and if you dont buy it eventually comes down. Part of the issue with this prejudice against DD is that people seem to think it is a monopoly pricing model, but it isnt and it hasnt shown any characteristics as such.
Also your UC2 example is probably soon to be moot because Sony already has installed in their firmware a method for renting DD titles. So you may actually end up with a cheaper gaming experience without the non-monetary costs associated with going to the game store and then trading in your games at GS (which doesnt actually give you money but credit).
Raen | 30/12/2009 15:59
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Yes shipping time can be an issue, although not for day-one releases. Amazon make guarantees on delivering it on release day, no need for a midnight queue with them. In fact a number of online retailers in the UK will have the game to you before the official release day.
If you want to talk about Steam that’s fine. And if you want me to steer away from Amazon and Shop.To I’ll go with the price on the GAME website, although I can’t guarantee this’ll be the in store price without actually going and checking, something I can’t do whilst at work. Modern Warfare 2 is £39.99 on Steam right now and £34.99 at GAME. Physical wins on the ‘year’s biggest game’. Left 4 Dead 2 is £22.49 on Steam and £24.99 at GAME. Digital wins only slightly, and that’s with Valve cutting out a huge amount of middlemen by selling on their own service. Borderlands is £20.09 on Steam and £14.99 at GAME. Fallout 3: GOTY is £22.49 on Steam and £24.99 at GAME. Resident Evil 5 is £22.49 and £4.98 at GAME (although out of stock). ANNO 1404 is £17.49 on Steam and £8.98 at GAME. That’s a quick selection of top selling recent game in the Steam and GAME charts. Both have sales on right now so prices probably aren’t truly reflective, but those are the prices right now. So it seems where Steam is ahead it’s only by £2.50, whereas GAME is £5+ cheaper where it’s ahead.
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 17:26
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Release day shipping costs extra, which still makes DD the better choice for day one releases. You can either get a slightly cheaper copy through Amazon and pay the extra for release day shipping, wait in line and buy it in store for the normal price or simply purchase the DD copy and have it on release day without shipping costs.
While your price comparison is nice, it does nothing to prove either method is better. While you can point to RE5 to make GAME look good, I could point to Left4Dead, which was only $25 for four copies a week or so ago on Steam, yet it was retailing for the same price for a single copy in GS that very same week. Even Batman AA is part of a package right now on Steam selling for $45 and inlcudes 20 other games, yet Amazon still lists $45 and GS lists $50.
All I am trying to say is that there is a misconception that DD titles are not price competitive. When the facts show that they can be just as price competitive, if not more so, when taking into consideration the additional costs of purchasing from a physical store or ordering from an online source.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 19:20
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I think you will find that the issues with Mirrors Edge were not the innovative gameplay experience, but that some of the basic gameplay mechanics were poorly implemented. A bit more time and effort in testing could have made it a great title. Agree with you on ODST, but when Bungie have done such a good job with past Halo games it was always going to be the case that it would sell well. They got the basics right first time and built on them much like IW with MW2. On your other point, if Sony are looking to implement rental for DD titles then I applaud them.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 18:58
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I think you will find that the issues with Mirrors Edge were not the innovative gameplay experience, but that some of the basic gameplay mechanics were poorly implemented. A bit more time and effort in testing could have made it a great title. Agree with you on ODST, but when Bungie have done such a good job with past Halo games it was always going to be the case that it would sell well. They got the basics right first time and built on them much like IW with MW2. On your other point, if Sony are looking to implement rental for DD titles then I applaud them.
waddo_89 | 30/12/2009 12:23
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After picking up a 320GB drive from Amazone for £40 (which I thought was quite good!) I’m quite happy to download games. Give my disc drive a rest, much prefer digital copies.
iNsAnE_gAmInG | 30/12/2009 15:08
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Yeah, you got a fairly good deal there.
I like having films stored digitally as I like having a digital collection, plus downloading films is clearly the way forward as most films you will only watch once. I prefer purchasing games through retail though, as you can trade them in obviously, plus they are pretty much ALWAYS cheaper.
waddo_89 | 30/12/2009 15:15
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Ye that’s true, I guess you need a balance. I love looking at my PS3 collection but at the same time when I realise I can play abit of Burnout or Warhawk without having to eject CoD, well, call me lazy but I just prefer it. And as far as price goes, isn’t everything about demand these days? I’m sure digital prices will fall as it becomes more and more popular.
MF6465 | 30/12/2009 12:27
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There is a much more important reason why digital distribution will never completely take over. Remember that some ps3 games fill the 50GB disks, and the size of games is only set to increase. Another perfect example is the talk of HD movies for download. They dont even remotely compare to blu ray in quality and are mostly more expensive than the blu ray. Physical media is here to stay. Which i think is a good thing.
Raen | 30/12/2009 12:40
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A digital copy of most games won’t be 50GB. For a start lots of devs on the PS3 have stopped compressing audio due to the size. Compress that, remove alternate language tracks (just download the one for your language) and you have a much smaller download for a start. And whilst the size of games is increasing, so are hard drives. Now assuming that Blu-Ray will be around for a while and games stay at around the 50GB limit (do they need to be bigger really?) I can right now go buy a 640GB hard disk that’d fit a PS3 for a hundred pounds. That’s 10+ 50GB games. If you assume poor compression of say 25% on the digital version you get about 17 games on the hard drive. And that’s right now, hard drives are growing at a crazy rate. A few years ago 1TB disks were way out of my price range, now I could afford a 1.5TB disk, and a 2TB if I needed one. Storage really is not an issue.
HD movies are a little different because it’s all down to bit rate. The same isn’t true of games (at least not to the same extent usually).
Alex_Assassin_08 | 01/01/2010 16:26
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You could have said exactly the same 15 years ago about how PS1 games were far too high graphical and sound quality to be files, and yet now I can run them on my PSP with no form of physical media.
Imagine telling someone 20 years ago that you could download a HD film through the internet. They would call you insane.
Sorry to sound rude, but your reason for why physical media will always stay is a complete non-point, and shall appear completely stupid in 5 years time.
bunimomike | 30/12/2009 12:51
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I really like digital distribution but it’s by no means perfect. Sony’s servers don’t seem up to the task on many a day. Our connection (here) is pants but I remember my 20Mbit connection at the old place blistering along with many a server… but not the PSN. Hell, I’ve worked out that sometimes the PSN is uploading to us slower than our 1Mbit!!!
Brushing all that aside, do we then say au revoir to the second-hand market? I bloody hope not. I pick up many a disc-based game months (or even a year) after initial release. I cannot afford to pay launch prices.
Finally, I understand what you’re saying about games being ‘X size’ and harddrives being ‘Y size’ but we’d still be paying quite a considerable sum for enough storage to house a decent MP3 collection, BluRay calibre movies (and not just 4.5GB .mkv files that are 720p but the compression is still a bit ropey at times). Throw into the mix the truly massive games (UC2, MGS4?) and we’re still a way off going DD all the way. Actually, thinking about it, imagine people losing a terabyte of harddrive (on the PS3) and having to download all that again. Jesus, that’s a serious amount of stuff to reclaim through your ISP, let alone your own connection limitations.
Personally I think the PSPGo was a pretty good idea. Not the smartest move in the world but, without hindsight, it probably seemed like a good time to test the waters.
Raen | 30/12/2009 13:11
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I like the use of the phrase “many a” in here. You receive my comment stamp of approval, rarely used.
bunimomike | 30/12/2009 15:44
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I’m looking to move house soon and I promise you, it’ll have more than a bloody 1Mbit connection. With that in mind, I bet I surpass what Sony are willing to upload at. *shakes fist* I prey for Virgin Media 20Mbit connection if I can push my luck. *sheds tears of joy*
retroedward | 30/12/2009 13:07
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I think for smaller games that are fun for a short while then digital is best, I would never bother to put the disc in otherwise! But for bigger games it would always have to be a physical copy for me.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 13:31
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Seconded!
TSBonyman | 30/12/2009 13:23
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Needs faster broadband, much better pricing structure particularly with previously released titles, and a clearly defined refund process.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 13:33
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Cleasrly defined refund process? Unless the game doesn’t work can’t see them refunding anything tbh.
cam the man | 30/12/2009 13:36
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Defiantly need faster broadband for digital distribution.
Imagine the download backlog when say, the next GTA or Metal Geared games are released in only digital form with hundreds of thousands of people trying to download it asap.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 13:49
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Faster broadband is not the answer to download backlog though, the publishers need to invest in better infrastructure to ensure they can supply the required bandwidth. Even with 20Mb it will only trickle down if they cant serve it quick enough.
cam the man | 30/12/2009 14:10
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True, but your broardband speed is only as fast as as the slowest component.
What was meant by faster broadband was not just from you to the exchange but the entire infrastructure.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 14:39
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My point was that there is more to consider here then just “broadband”. Publishers will need to invest in server infrastructure etc than can cope with the demands placed on them. broadband is just the conduit.
Anthony72 | 30/12/2009 13:36
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Ive taken the plunge and bought a PSPgo ( Its nofi’s fault if he hadnt have banged on about it so much I woudlnt have got one as I was reasoning with myself that it wasnt worth it ). However I like the idea of having movies (4 at the moment) and games (7 at the moment) on me without having to carry the discs seperatley. Yes the pricing isnt great and I lose the trade in value but I am very selcetive about the games I buy. If I want it that bad Ill buy it for the PS3. IMO I think yes its a good idea but it does need better pricing if its going to appeal to the masses. However like most things when more people use it/ buy from it the pricing will come down. Its not a bad start it just needs a bit of tweaking. Lets be honest 10 years ago we didnt even have a decent internet conncetion now we can download stuff as and when we want it. Thats a massive leap forward in IMO.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 13:47
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430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
Makes sense with a portable device because not having to carry around 10+ UMD’s with you everwhere is real convenience. The retail price of new PSP games is already significantly less than for PS3 though, so less to lose at trade in time anyway.
Anthony72 | 30/12/2009 14:48
Member
267 TSA Points | Member since: Jun 2009
Exactly Ive been into Game and theyve offered 6-8 pound fo a game I bought 4 weeks before at full price. IMO this is a way of publishers killing the pre-owned market for which they make no extra money from. If the games are cheap enough Ill buy them, if not I wont and wait till they drop in price. To be fair to SCEE there have been a lot of special offers on games recently on the PSN stores.
legalisemurder | 30/12/2009 14:07
Member
320 TSA Points | Member since: Aug 2008
Maybe when we get something approaching decent broadband.I couldn’t even play KZ2 without being kicked and getting some stupid error check your connection message nevermind trying to download it and i’m supposedly on an 8 meg connection.For digital distribution to take off download caps would have to be removed.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 14:21
Member
430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
Or you could pay for a service without a download cap? I’m only on 2MB (live in a village distant away from exchange) but have never had any issues playing KZ2, BF:BC, BF1943, MW2 etc online. Maybe you have an underlying problem with your router etc rather than the speed of you broadband? Tru using one of the onlien speed testers to see what you are actually getting http://www.speedtest.net/
legalisemurder | 30/12/2009 14:47
Member
320 TSA Points | Member since: Aug 2008
It doesn’t matter if you pay for a package with no download cap most if not all companies will still throttle your connection if you are a heavy user.I have run speed tests and it seems to average 6.5.I think the problem is i moved house and changed to a wireless but regardless of connection method it would take most gamers a couple of years to download the games they would normally buy in physical form.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 15:12
Member
430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
I thinbk the majority of ISP’s are getting better with this, but I know what you mean. Agree on the game download times, would take me days to download UC2 for example. You may want to check your wireless settings and router setup, had a few problems with mine when I first got my PS3 slim but after unlocking a few ports and messing about has been solid for months.
bunimomike | 30/12/2009 15:48
Member
4733 TSA Points | Member since: Jul 2009
That’s a fair point. BT cap you for an entire month if you download over 100GB in the prior month. Think about downloading all your PS3 content again (assuming we went DD all the way). Not good… not good at all.
@legalisemurder Go with O² if you can help it. Excellent ISP, great call centre and no throttling of speeds. Not so much as a letter issued to any customer around the UK to tell them to behave with downloads. I’m sure they will one day but they’ve been stunning so far. Equally, often a speed increase when leaving the likes of AOL, Tiscali *spits*, BT, etc.
teflon | 30/12/2009 14:16
Member
1989 TSA Points | Member since: May 2009
Im a physical disc person through and through. If there’s the option of a disc, then that’s the way I’ll go, from DVDs to CDs to BDs. Of course, with film and music, I can then rip it to any damned format I want, despite the copy protection, and on the PSP, I have ripped all my legally bought games (I swear to the Lords of Kobol that this is the case, and I take my BSG damned seriously) and shoved them onto an 8GB stick.
The simple truth is that PSN is a competing storefront with Amazon and Shopto and whoever else. So it too has its own profit margin for Sony and a dedicated chunk of the money that goes to the publisher and developer. So it’s Sony’s prerogative to set the pricing as competitively as they want/can manage. Maybe they’re using the profit from PSN to subsidise the server costs for running a gratis multiplayer?
And don’t forget that Game does a booming trade, despite their prices being way higher than Amazon or Shopto. In fact, they stick to the £40 for a game pricing more than any of the other major stores, but will still shift inventory like nobody’s business.
So, it’s up to Sony, basically. But it’s encouraging to see that they’ve now got a “special offers” section on PSN running every week, and if they keep putting compelling games in there, I’ll bite.
When they start offering full retail games on PSN in a serious way, they’ll probably get their act together and price them better, and I might grab a few then too…
TctclMvPhase | 30/12/2009 16:13
Member
818 TSA Points | Member since: Nov 2008
Just because you legally buy those physical copies, it is still illegal to make copies.
Other than that I agree with your post. Sony asks what the market will bear, so until they see it as more profitable to drop the price, the price stays where it is.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 19:13
Member
430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
Can you post a link to the information that states that backing up your own games is illegal, as I can’t seem to find this information and would like to be convinced that this is the case. I know that you cannot play copies on the PS3, so it would be pointless anyway, just wanted to be sure. Unfortunately, though you are correct about the fact that Sony will price things at a level the market willl bear, this doesn’t make it a fair price, just an arbitrary one. As they have no competition at the moment they can do what they want and some people will be willing to overpay just for the convenience.
cc_star | 30/12/2009 19:15
Team TSA: Writer
7803 TSA Points | Member since: Forever
Its possibly in the license you agree to either on the console, or in the game’s manual.
ScottW-1976 | 30/12/2009 19:19
Member
430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
Looks like I have found something myself http://game-copy-software-review.toptenreviews.com/is-game-copying-legal.html. Interesting…
TctclMvPhase | 31/12/2009 01:47
Member
818 TSA Points | Member since: Nov 2008
Perhaps you should look further, Scott. In the US the specific piece of legislation is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, but said act invokes treaties under the World Intellectual Property Organization so it likely has a counterpart in the majority of the first world nations. The act of copying itself is dubious and as you pointed out, subject to a court’s interpretation of fair use. However, as we are talking about games, games are without question illegal. This is because the DMCA outlaws the circumvention of copyright protection. Since all game systems have copy protection on their discs, you cant legally make those copies, despite the illusion of ownership often associated with a physical copy.
Most DVD and Blu-Ray movies have copy protection and subsequently fall under this, though Im not sure about CDs.
ScottW-1976 | 31/12/2009 10:00
Member
430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
To be honest, I was of the opinion that the DMCA is relevant in circumstances where copyright protection is circumvented (such as mod chips for Wii and 360) and not the backing up of games themselves. Fair enough though. Just like to add how nice it is to have a grown up discussion on an internet forum for a change. Thats why I’m such a big fan of TSA.
TctclMvPhase | 31/12/2009 11:16
Member
818 TSA Points | Member since: Nov 2008
It has been a pleasure Scott and I agree that the membership is what truly makes TSA special.
Unfortunately, my work schedule usually interferes with my ability to have such discussions and I am instead left to debate on lesser sites, which is why I must apologize for my condescension. I forgot where I was and subsequently forgot my manners.
ScottW-1976 | 31/12/2009 12:41
Member
430 TSA Points | Member since: Dec 2009
Your apology is accepted TctclMvPhase, though not required. Nothing better than a grown up discussion with an intelligent individual on an interesting subject, especially when it doesn’t descend into name calling etc. I look forward to your future posts. Oh, and happy New Year.
dude90 | 30/12/2009 14:25
Member
62 TSA Points | Member since: Nov 2009
In one way I feel that physical is more worth it because if you have a slow connection while downloading a game, it may stop half way and take days to finish the download.
colmshan1990 | 30/12/2009 14:29
Member
1101 TSA Points | Member since: Apr 2009
My main problem with Digital Distribution is competition. Until the consoles open up to the extent where I have a choice to download Burnout off of the PSN, Amazon, iTunes, or another example, prices will stay high. We need competition.
TheSabreman | 30/12/2009 14:35
Member
364 TSA Points | Member since: Jul 2009
spot on, just read this after posting my comment!
TheSabreman | 30/12/2009 14:32
Member
364 TSA Points | Member since: Jul 2009
Digital distribution is ok as long as it is competitive and at the moment it isnt.
If redeemable codes for games were available from independent stores that would help, I see that Gravity Crash is available via amazon.com but is still sold through Sony.
The best thing at the moment is to buy psn cards via Zavvi/shopto as that is the only way to get a better deal with digital distribution.
Raen | 30/12/2009 16:11
Team TSA: Writer
3716 TSA Points | Member since: Mar 2009
Excellent point. It’s more open on the PC, but it’d be nice if the same was true with the console systems. Of course it never will be, because they’re not idiots. If you control the service you have lock in and every customer. Why would you give that up?
Phil_E | 30/12/2009 14:35
Member
673 TSA Points | Member since: Forever
I think I’m the same as a lot of people here. I don’t mind digital downloads, I have plenty hard drive space, it saves swapping discs and it is convenient to purchase them in your own house.
But the price is the biggest issue, when you can’t sell the game on when your done that could be a lot of your money back depending how fast you are, or when a game has been out for a while the prices don’t fall the same as stores so aren’t competitive enough to urge me to buy it digitally. So I’ll just continue to buy the game from the online or real life store that is the cheapest or offers the best preorder bonus.