Earlier today Sony updated the terms of service for PSN, including new elements referring to software resale and monitoring of the network. The software clause (section 7.1) states that users cannot resell their games without authorisation from Sony.
However we didn’t run this story because we discovered the same clause has been issued by lots of companies over the years, including publishers, such as Activision, who have a similar clause in game manuals. It’s pretty much unenforceable, unless Sony decide to implement used game fees or blocking second hand discs, something the company said it wouldn’t do at E3.
However another major addition was the fact that Sony has the option to monitor user’s activities when using PSN. Sony have stated that the company doesn’t have the power to monitor every user constantly, but if Sony believe they have a cause to monitor your activity then they will.
This includes going through your messages, both text and voice, content that you may have generated such as gameplay videos, your IP to determine where an activity took place and your address. Specific reasons as to when Sony would carry out surveillance against someone haven’t been made clear, but law breaking is mentioned. According to the ToS if you accept the terms then you apparently have given consent to allowing Sony to monitor you if they deem it necessary.
Right now we’re living in a time where the debate over individual privacy and nations monitoring populations in the name of security has flared up, with various sides supplying their own arguments. I won’t go into detail of my own position but let’s just say I like my privacy. Of course I understand Sony has to moderate the content that flows through its servers, but the point that gets me is the fact Sony reserves the right to monitor your activity “without further notice to you.”
As in they don’t have to tell you if/when they start monitoring your activities, because consent is already implied. This debate will only grow as our digital lives get bigger everyday, and it is something to seriously think about.
UPDATE: If you’re still worried the new TOS would restrict the sale of second hand games, Shuhei Yoshida has a tweet for you
If you are concerned about our new European TOS, we confirm that you are able to sell or share your disc PS4 products, including in EU.
— Shuhei Yoshida (@yosp) November 12, 2013
tonycawley
At least they’re telling us they could do it, unlike everyone else who are just doing it behind our backs and not telling us.
Honestly the day and age we’re in right now this should be no surprise to anyone. I’m quite happy for them to monitor me as much as they see fit, I have nothing to hide.
That doesn’t just apply to Sony either. There’s enough dangerous people in this world that if monitoring everybody keeps us all safer then I’m happy to go along with that.
bunimomike
Same here. If this helps keep disgusting behaviour and fraudulent action away from the PSN then please PLEASE monitor things!
nobby3687
They can monitor me and then email me saying thanks for all the money you have plowed into you sony consoles via psn and i hope monitoring people stops hackers and some abuse that gets thrown around !!
quinkill
I’m not sure i’m with you on this one mate. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing to hide but isn’t our right to privacy just as important as the right you’re exercising here, freedom of expression. I agree it’s nice of them to let us know up front, but the guys doing it behind our backs? i’m not convinced.
beeje13
Can’t think of a better example, but Microsoft didn’t say anything about handing over skype information in its terms and conditions. Didn’t stop them giving information to the NSA.
Anyway, i’m not sold on the idea of monitoring anyway.
bunimomike
I’d agree except you are making a choice to use their network. From there on in, it really is over to Sony to set out the T&Cs on this and either have you agree or disagree with them.
Shalashaska
This is a bit much on sony’s part and rather annoying. I don’t really use psn that much anymore but to use remote play with my ps4 I’ll have to download a patch day one which means I’ll have to agree with these new terms. Not happy at all. Never been one to take heed of the conspiracy nuts but they are starting to make more sense these days.
boeboe
Globalisation says hi! I think more people are noticing because the world is getting smaller – feels like someone’s breathing down you neck when you surf the internet.
I IMPLORE you and anyone else who are getting a little uneasy with whats being going on of late to indulge the nut in all of us. Zeitgeist might be a good start.
cam the man
If you do/say nothing offensive or illegal you should have nothing to worry about. I bet most ISP have, or will have soon, the same type of terms & conditions.
I don’t mind the new “terms of service for PSN” if it helps stop hackers, users from abusing others etc.
Wardy-77-
Exactly.
boeboe
People are too apathetic.
“I’m not doing anything in my life that I have to hide from anyone.” Why does this mentality mean it’s okay for people- government or otherwise- to invade your privacy? You’d call the cops if somebody was just peeking in your window, right? But why? You’ve got nothing to hide, right? So let them stare all they want.
Right?
scavenga
@boeboe,thanks for saying that so I didn’t have to.
djdustb
Not quite the same Boeboe.
We are using the network set-up by Sony and agree to their terms. The person looking in your Window, you have not signed up for, if you invited him in and he was to watch you then it would be the same as being on the PSN. if you catch my drift.
a inferior race
BoeBoe’s comment appeared to be a general point about surveillance.
djdustb
Yes but the point is not really correct here, this topic is about a service you use being able to monitor how you use it. If you don’t like it don’t use the service.
It is not the same as the government or other agencies spying on the normal person in the street.
boeboe
@DJ
Yes I am guilty of bringing the wider (ever growing) context of surveillance into a slightly irrelevant thread thread. Why? Because I believe people should be thinking about it more. I’m sorry if I angered you and I’m sorry if I come across as arrogant but I’m not going to leave you alone. I WANT you to get mad.
djdustb
I’m not mad and to be fair I agree with you about the whole heap of spying on and monitoring we are subjected to each day, I was just sounding out against you as the face of everyone that complains about specific instances of being monitored on when A) it is a service and so should be expected and B) it is for the our protection (for want of a better word).
boeboe
Yeah totally agree. Its really hard to communicate these kind of points and also to listen to them when there are so many different views and disinformation around. Always easier to refer people to documentaries, which are top on Netflix as of last night when I looked. The likes of Zeitgeist and Shock Doctrine. But then I can also see why people would justify 2 hours in a scarce work free life based on some angry rant. Hard to get across but satisfying when you do : )
Paranoimia
Not an issue as far as I’m concerned. You’re using their network, and it stands to reason that they reserve the right to monitor what you’re doing on it. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s more or less a legal requirement for them to be able to do so. Chances are you’ll only be monitored if you’re reported for abuse of some kind.
Every time you phone a company or organisation these days you’re told that the conversation may be monitored or recorded for various reasons. You’re probably having far more personal conversations there than your likely to on PSN.
Paranoimia
*you’re
Wardy-77-
I had to sign up to the new T.O.S a few days ago first on PS3 then Vita and saw this and DRM section that I’ve seen people going on about saying Sony back tracked,I believe the DRM section is same as PS3’s as it doesn’t mention PS4 just saying home console means PlayStation 3 and mobile device means PSP or PS Vita or mobile,and I’ll bet there was a monitoring part to the old PS3 terms of service I’m pretty sure they’ve been able to read your messages any time they want.
Starman
So they have gone back on the used games policy that they were so proud to announce at the time. The monitoring is excessive, sounds like it can be given or sold to anyone.
Starman
Incidentally I can’t sign in on my Ps vita because it says I need to accept the new t&c’s but it doesn’t give me them to accept.
gazzagb
Sign in here and accept them, I had issues with PSN and this kinda helped:
http://www.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com
Wardy-77-
I’m pretty sure its the same as with the PS3,also try deactivating your vita and reactivating R1M had to do a similar thing when I told him about it as he was stuck in a loop and that fixed it.
Starman
Thanks, I’ll give it a go.
beeje13
Indeed it looks like it, but it’s just a technicality. It says I cannot resell my game in most of my PS3 game manuals.
Tuffcub
Absoloutely not, every single game you have purchased has said EXACTLY the same thing, you cannot re-sell it. Has it stopped anyone? No. Will Sony’s TOS? No.
So no change.
Starman
They’ve gone from saying no restrictions on selling your games to needing authorisation from Sony. I know its unenforceable but its clearly a total 180 on policy. I’d like to know sonys response to this.
bunimomike
Hasn’t that always been the case? I remember seeing a “no resell” condition on PS3 games years ago. It’s one of those conditions that’s never adhered to. Also, Shuhei tweeted this.
Starman
Yeah that’s always been the case Mike, I was just questioning why its in there after what they said originally. And yosp’s tweet confuses the situation further. Can he alter T&C’s on the fly via twitter?!
bunimomike
I think it’s probably an oversight as Sony nail down the T&Cs for the PS4 usage. Of course, the moment we see its inclusion, pitchforks are being readied although Shuhei has thankfully restored calm once more by tweeting what he did. Thing is… the subtext of that is “we left this out. It’s now in there. Calm down, everyone. Nothing has really changed but we need it in there to cover ourselves”.
If it differs from the above, I’ll want to know more too…
… and will sharpen pitchfork prongs just in case. ;-)
lambchop
No, They haven’t. This has been standard in virtually all T’s and C’s for many years. They aren’t enforceable and European Law overrides them.
Blair Inglis
Just like a social network, isn’t it?
englishgolfer
Or like thesixthaxis :P
Taken from thesixthaxis ToS:
You understand that we do not monitor all user-generated content on our sites and we are under no obligation to do so. However, we reserve the right to monitor all such content and, without notice, to edit, delete or remove any content which we deem to be inappropriate.
gazzagb
If it’s just monitoring the user’s activities, then I’m ok with that. What’s not ok is if they can monitor the user via the Move Camera, just like the rumours about Kinect.
Wardy-77-
Shu is watching you ;D
lambchop
If they monitor me with the camera, they might just see me naked, legs akimbo with vibrating DualShock between my legs ;)
yd
It’s all fairly standard stuff.
Lots of vague “we might monitor stuff, but we can’t monitor it all”. Gives them the ability to monitor and remove things if they find out about it, while giving them an excuse if someone does something they shouldn’t and someone wants to blame Sony.
Fairly standard stuff, really. We’re not responsible for anything, but we’ll do something about it if we’re alerted to it. Pretty sensible position to take.
The rest is just saying what they’re recording and that they can use it to protect all sorts of things, including their users.
Exactly the same sorts of terms will apply to all sorts of things. In fact, there are those very same terms for using this website.
So the question is, who saw those new Sony terms and decided it was something worth making a fuss about? Someone trying to make Sony look bad 4 days before the PS4 launches in the US? Such a huge non-story.
DarkLord
We live in modern times where bad people use unconventional methods of communication.
This would have been mandated to Sony because they are hosting a communications network.
It no less than what every other technology company will be doing, whether they tell you or not.
As for used games, unenforceable, and likely lawyer-speak.
stueeeee
It also says something about if they take the entire SEN down they don’t have to tell us why, and if there’s any loss of data/damages due to malicious attacks on the network or system software updates they’re not liable for….
Wardy-77-
I really wouldn’t worry about it,I’m not going to lose sleep over it only waiting for the dam thing will do that lol ;D